I hate bringing this up.

"The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock" (jukesjukesjukes) 12/10/2018 at 01:17 • Filed to: None

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Brakes. Like tires & engine oil there is no right or wrong, just pros & cons(hence why I hate bringing it up).

Not my brakes.

It’s no lie I drive my car like it’s going to wrecking yard tomorrow. Having almost lost my brakes at the track, next year I want to step up my brake game. I’m still pretty new performance driving, so I’ll admit I don’t know much. I only started doing it the beginning of this summer. I’ve also learned lots in those 6-ish months, but there is lots more to learn.

I know there is no true street/track set up. Just a good street, & ok track. Just ok street, & good track. Since most of my driving I’ll go with 1st of 2 given ones. The factory specs are DOT 4, looking around there are plenty of options. From the factory it also has good size brakes(MT got 60-0 in 124ft back in 2011) , so rotor size is not a concern at the moment.

All that said after combing over factory specs, & such. I think I have devised a good plan: ATE TYP200/SuperBlue , I have heard lots of good about it & the price is less then Motul. For the pads I’m considering Stoptech 309s, from various track groups I’ve been told it’s a good happy medium . The rotors has not a mega concern, iron is iron. That’s my very uneducated idea, go ahead & tear it apart.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 12/10/2018 at 01:25

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I personally think it’s wonderful how much you love your car, and how hard you work it. I have no qualms with you throwing the kitchen sink at your braking system, as it will only embolden your confidence and enthusiasm.

The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 12/10/2018 at 01:27

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I like sending it, but sending it responsibly. 

Hey Julie > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 12/10/2018 at 01:30

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Not sure how relevant my 85 Mercedes is to your juke but I’ve had a very positive experience with ATE as a company 

Bman76 (no it doesn't need a WS6 hood) M. Arch > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 12/10/2018 at 01:51

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I have Stoptech 660 and Hawk HP Street 5.0 pads on the TA (also Centric High Carbon 125 Series Cryo-Treated Rotors, but that was because I needed new rotors anyway)

M y experience with the brake fluid is that the cost of even the best fluid isn’t that much more than the cheap stuff, so I just bought the best I could. Don’t know that that’s right o r smart, but it’s what I did.

DutchieDC2R > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 12/10/2018 at 02:00

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Fluid is extremely important as far as track driving goes, when it comes to rotors though, if youre doing daily driving/semi hard track driving, slotted or drilled really arent necessary.

I think, this is just my guess, that you will benefit from better pads rather than ‘better’ rotors, especially considering youll be changing pads more often.

To add to that, it all depends on the combo youre running. Certain pads go better with certain rotors, I think its a matter of test and trial. Youll learn that certain combinations have a better bite, certain pads dust more, certain take longer to warm up etc etc.

Either way, props to you for preparing and enjoying the car and racing! 

pip bip - choose Corrour > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 12/10/2018 at 02:18

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if those brake pads don’t work that well try EBC?

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 12/10/2018 at 02:25

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You might as well bring it up since our VW Transporter needs new pads and rotors. It’s still running the original rotors even after 280,000 km because it’s a commercial vehicle that has never commuted. Now I’m just waiting for the sound of metal on metal.

And the Patrol needs new fluid...cause it takes a leisurely approach to the loss of momentum with almost no pedal travel.

So I’m happy to take suggestions out from under your nose...

Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 12/10/2018 at 03:15

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My 2c worth (I used to work as a brake systems engineer for an OEM, so maybe 3c worth. But it was 20 years ago so I wouldn’t value it as high as 5c):

Most modern cars have adequate rotors for short-session track use. The limiting factor for rotors is repeated decelerations from max speed: German autobahns are actually worse than tracks for that. Unless you’re doing endurance work I wouldn’t worry about upgrading rotors.

Slotted and drilled rotors look good but don’t have any practical effect unless you’re running race pads and working them hard.

High temp fluid is worth it for peace of mind since it’s cheap, but more important is frequent flushes - brake fluid boiling point drops rapidly with age. 1 year old race fluid is no better than new regular fluid, and 2 year old fluid shouldn’t be on a track.

Most cars are (relatively) over-braked at the rear for track use. The rears are rated for a full car - with only a driver the wheels will be less loaded so max braking force will be less. Also tracks typically have high friction surfaces so weight transfer is higher, unloading the rears. All this implies you should uprate the front pads more than the rears. I run road/track pads at the front and stock ones at the rear when tracking my GT86 and I used to run full race front and road/track rear on my race Commodore. Overspeccing the pads is counterproductive if you’re not getting them hot enough for optimum performance. The exception to this is that some cars’ stability control works the rears pretty hard to counter understeer and enhance turn-in - my GTI would overheat rear pads on track unless I turned VSC off.

Having said all that, it’s important to keep the friction coefficient matched between front and rear or you’ll mess up the brake balance. I f using different compounds F&R check they’re similar friction - most pads are in a pretty narrow range but there are exceptions.

It’s really hard to find a road/track pad that’s actually good for DD use - they all squeal to some extent and shed dust more than regular pads. Better IMHO to plan on changing pads before a track session, and use regular road pads for normal use: with practice swapping pads is only a 15 minute job unless you have inboard brakes. If you stick with road pads at the rear on track,  that may even just mean swapping the fronts - that’s what I do on the 86.

The more race-oriented a pad is, the more important good bed-in is: don’t neglect this if putting uprated pads in. Be aware they may also need re-bedding after extended gentle use.

TL;DR leave the rotors alone, stick race fluid in it, and swap out the front pads for road/track ones before a session: don’t worry about the rears unless you find you’re cooking them or chewing through them. I like Ferodo DS2500 for a road/track pad, but there’s plenty of good choices.

Captain of the Enterprise > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 12/10/2018 at 05:51

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Better brakes are always a good idea in my book and I like your juke and your enthusiasm for it!

I like your plan. I would spring for rotors with a coating on the hats and in the veins of the rotor. It helps prevent them from rusting to the hub.

boxrocket > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 12/10/2018 at 06:24

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“A noble spirit enbiggens the heart.”

Sounds like a goof plan. Just do it carefully, and bleed the system thoroughly. Don’t forget to bed the pads, and use anti-seize on the bolts. Recheck the torque specs and adjustments after a hundred miles or so. You may also want to consider converting to calipers with more pistons if your current wheel setup has that much space allowance.  

Party-vi > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 12/10/2018 at 08:43

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Dumb question - are your tires sticky enough that upgrading brakes is the right place to start? I’m guessing yes since you track it.

Cash Rewards > Bman76 (no it doesn't need a WS6 hood) M. Arch 12/10/2018 at 09:11

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I read somewhere that the DOT standards are so specific that there all pretty much identical

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 12/10/2018 at 09:16

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Why would someone put the logo for the Grand Imperial Military on their car’s frame?

The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock > Party-vi 12/10/2018 at 09:30

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The tires I'll be getting yes. Michelin Pilot PS2's(235/50r17), because 220tw tires are perfectly reasonable on crossover. 

WRXforScience > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 12/10/2018 at 10:03

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Your fluid choice is good, that stoptech pad isn’t a full race pad so you’ll outgrow it quickly. I’ve had good experiences with Ferodo DS2500 and late the DS1.11 and am currently enjoying some Carbotech/Gloc pads (I spent the last two years sampling different pads to find the best for my application).

As you get faster you’ll need more pad (fluid is fine, just check and change it often). Rotors are fine, use cheap ones and swap as needed (a cheaper rotor might wear faster but they are usually more cost effective). Ducts/vents are often worth the investment.

During track season I’ll often just live with the noise and dust from my track pads (I’ve got a short commute and I’m at the track nearly every weekend); however, if I’m going more than 3 weeks between trackdays I’ll swap in some street pads. I f you swap often, I’d recommend Hawk products since they use the same binding material for a number of their compounds so you don’t have to worry as much about pad contamination (I don’t think it matters, but some do).

You could use the Hawk HPS for the street and Hawk DTC30 up to DTC60 are good track pads (above DTC60 you’re looking at a very aggressive track pad that works great but requires longer heat up times and can be downright dangerous on the street, those are ‘expert’ pads).

If your pad compound isn’t heat tolerant enough you will either glaze the pad or eat through it very quickly. Different cars and even different tracks will have different requirements and as you get faster you’ll need to match the brake performance with your ability.

All the rubber bits will wear faster with heat (including things like the cv joint boots), so keep an eye on them too. 

The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock > WRXforScience 12/10/2018 at 10:08

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I’m not looking for full out track pad, it spends 99% of the time on the street. When I'm on the track I do short sessions.

WRXforScience > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 12/10/2018 at 12:01

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20min session can be enough to overtax a hybrid pad, especially with a fast driver, heavy car, and/or a brake intensive track (you really just need one of those 3).

I did an event about 6 years ago with my previous 2010 WRX with the stoptech street/race pads where they set up a time trial track on an airfield. We had a warm- up lap then 3-4 flying laps to set a time (kind of a time trial/autox hybrid thing) and I managed to turn a nearly brand new set of those stoptechs into smoke. I drove home on just downshifting and when I changed the pads they were down to the backing plates (I now always carry a spare set of pads and tools to swap them).